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| Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation | |
| Posted by: Musicals54 11:45 am EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| Gatsby has no agency. Gatz did but once his love for Daisy eggs him onto becoming Gatsby and moving to Long Island, he is simply a shining jewel in other peoples' story. The inciting incidents occur long before he becomes Gatsby. Nick is an unusual narrator as he distances Gatsby from us. Gatsby's tragedy is more melodrama as his death is a mistake. George thinks he was the one who killed Mildred it was, of course, Tom who (as Fitzgerald wrote)disappears into his money. How do you dramatize that? Have him jump into a vat of dollar bills? Both too literal and not the point. Fitzgerald says it all in 4 words. Nick is not an omniscient narrator nor an unreliable narrator. In some ways it is his story about his discovery of the excesses of the 1920s and perhaps the futility of love. I always have taken the title to be ironic. | |
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| re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:23 pm EDT 05/02/24 | |
| In reply to: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation - Musicals54 11:45 am EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| I agree with the general point that the novel is extremely difficult to dramatize successfully for some of the rasons you mention. I think the main character is Nick, but most of the action happens around him. Still, it's really his story, but in dramatizations Gatsby and Daisy always become the leads, but one problem is that Gatsby is a shadowy figure until well into the novel. I do think Gatsby has agency. It's Daisy who has very little agency. I can tell from looking at the song list for this musical that Gatsby comes on relatively early with a want song. It may seem to the creators like they had to do that, but I think it's probably a mistake. Btw, it's Daisy who kills Myrtle, at least in the novel, and at least if we believe Gatsby, and I think we are meant to believe him on this because Gatsby initially intends to lead Nick to believe he was driving, but Nick guesses it was Daisy, and after a moment, Gatsby confirms it. When discussing the immediate aftermath of Myrtle's death, Nick does seem to become an omniscient narrator for a chapter. Or at least no explanation is given for how he knows so much detail about Wilson's reactions and how Michaelis and other neighbors try to help Wilson through the immediate aftermath of Myrtle’s deahth. |
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| re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation | |
| Posted by: jbk 07:28 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| In reply to: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation - Musicals54 11:45 am EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| Here's a tantalizing glimpse of a might-have-been GATSBY: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/arts/music/unsung-carolyn-leigh-reveals-charm-of-a-gatsby-musical.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb The Pockriss/Leigh songs are great to hear in concert, but who knows...? |
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| Linking Lincoln Center's posting of the official video of the concert | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 06:28 pm EDT 05/02/24 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:27 pm EDT 05/02/24 | |
| In reply to: re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation - jbk 07:28 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| Lincoln Center posted an official video of the concert, which I'm linking. The Gatsby section starts at 39:22. | |
| Link | Unsung Carolyn Leigh |
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| Never adapt first-rate material | |
| Posted by: NeoAdamite 03:13 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| In reply to: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation - Musicals54 11:45 am EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| It's far wiser to adapt midlist material like "Two Gentlemen of Verona" than masterpieces, because the better work is celebrated for being a perfectly integrated whole. Every review of GATSBY compared it directly to the book, and how could that ever come out in the musical's favor? A faithful adaptation of Fitzgerald would not attract producers. It's too bitter, there are no likeable characters, and the romance is between two people hellbent on avoiding self-knowledge. It indicts the audience. Instead, the current Broadway adaptation seems to have decided early on to make Gatsby/Daisy a sympathetic love story, and most of the other changes followed from there. I had no problem with the alterations made to Jordan and Myrtle, they weren't in conflict with the underlying story. Making Daisy more thoughtful fit less well, but it didn't bother me much. But giving Gatsby a solo moment declaring his deep and sincere love for Daisy...that's Broadway looking to put butts in seats, not Fitzgerald. |
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| The producers of Les mis and phantom would disagree. | |
| Posted by: dramedy 03:17 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| In reply to: Never adapt first-rate material - NeoAdamite 03:13 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| Anything in the right hands can be adapted. This gatsby just has a weak score that goes no where. I’m also not a fan of breaking fourth wall narration which I think this production does a lot of. | |
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| re: The producers of Les mis and phantom would disagree. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:16 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| In reply to: The producers of Les mis and phantom would disagree. - dramedy 03:17 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| Is Leroux's "Phantom" novel really first-rate material? I think that's debatable. | |
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| What About Works of Edna Ferber, Eugene O'Neill, Bernard Shaw, and Others? | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 09:50 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 09:48 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| In reply to: re: The producers of Les mis and phantom would disagree. - Chromolume 04:16 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| What about Ferber's Show Boat; Pygmalion; Tales of the South Pacific; Ah, Wilderness!; Gone With the Wind; Ron Chernow's Alexander Hamilton to name a few? Then there's always A String of Pearls, which is certainly famous and popular in the UK, but more like the example of Leroux' The Phantom of the Opera. I love The Matchmaker, and Tevye's Daughters is certainly famous and popular, but I'm not sure if either is considered first-rate. | |
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| re: What About Works of Edna Ferber, Eugene O'Neill, Bernard Shaw, and Others? | |
| Posted by: Broadwaywannabe 09:39 am EDT 05/02/24 | |
| In reply to: What About Works of Edna Ferber, Eugene O'Neill, Bernard Shaw, and Others? - BroadwayTonyJ 09:48 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| I don’t think the adaptations of any of those works purport to strictly adhere to their source material. I think it’s more accurate to say they are inspired by their sources and in most cases have something to say that go beyond their source material. And the musicals don’t use the same title as the source material. | |
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| re: What About Works of Edna Ferber, Eugene O'Neill, Bernard Shaw, and Others? | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 07:52 pm EDT 05/02/24 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:46 pm EDT 05/02/24 | |
| In reply to: re: What About Works of Edna Ferber, Eugene O'Neill, Bernard Shaw, and Others? - Broadwaywannabe 09:39 am EDT 05/02/24 | |
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| And the musicals don’t use the same title as the source material. Show Boat and (at least one adaptation of) Gone With The Wind do. Now, that said, it used to be pretty common for a musical to take on its own original title. Nowadays much less so - and that is most likely to sell the show in conjunction with its popular/successful film title, etc. But that still doesn't mean that all those shows come from great sources. |
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| NELLIE & EMILE'S ENCHANTED EVENING? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 07:23 pm EDT 05/03/24 | |
| In reply to: re: What About Works of Edna Ferber, Eugene O'Neill, Bernard Shaw, and Others? - Chromolume 07:46 pm EDT 05/02/24 | |
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| I suppose (planting tongue firmly in cheek), Dick and Oscar could have called it Nellie and Emile's Enchanted Evening but a greater business sense prevailed and they went the Michener route (minus a noun, preposition, and article). Seriously, though, I agree with everything in your post. |
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| I knew someone would call me out on that | |
| Posted by: dramedy 04:53 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| In reply to: re: The producers of Les mis and phantom would disagree. - Chromolume 04:16 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| Is phantom and masterpiece—no. But it is as popular as Les mis or hunchback and others. And I don’t really know if I’d consider gatsby a masterpiece but others do. | |
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| re: I knew someone would call me out on that | |
| Posted by: huskyital 12:39 am EDT 05/02/24 | |
| In reply to: I knew someone would call me out on that - dramedy 04:53 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| I think it is a better book than either of them, but I think that the beauty is in the writing not just in the characters and that is something that is not easily transferable to stage or screen.. | |
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| re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation | |
| Posted by: Hair 02:34 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| In reply to: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation - Musicals54 11:45 am EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| I read this book later than most because my English class didn't assign this, but when I finally did I have to say it made me wonder what all the fuss was about Not my favorite. |
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| re: "I read this book later than most" | |
| Posted by: Dale 07:08 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| In reply to: re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation - Hair 02:34 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| Some time ago the New York Times was printing a chapter a week for it's Sunday Book Review... that so many New Yorkers were reading the same book at the same time was fun, but I also don't get what the fuss is! Well, I am a Carson McCullers fan and don't get "Member Of The Wedding" either. | |
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| re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation | |
| Posted by: den 04:27 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| In reply to: re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation - Hair 02:34 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| I think it’s the kind of book that needs to be done in the context of a class or a seminar or a book club where there can be discussion. I taught the book for many years, and it’s one of my favorites. In fact, I think it’s probably the best American novel of the 20th century. But the first time I read it (also outside of a class) I didn’t get what the fuss was about either. It reveals its many riches upon rereading. I thought the immersive Gatsby last year did a decent job — not great, but decent — , and I’m interested in seeing both musical versions, though I’m sure I’ll quibble with some of the changes that were made. | |
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| re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation | |
| Last Edit: dramedy 03:13 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| Posted by: dramedy 03:12 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| In reply to: re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation - Hair 02:34 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| it was sort of a social commentary on 1920s American society. Catcher in the rye is another famous book that when read later in life isn’t that interesting. But there are plays and musicals that have different meaning depending on what stage of life you are at. I get a lot more out of follies and into the woods now than when I saw a revival of follies and original woods in my 20s. |
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| re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:30 pm EDT 05/02/24 | |
| In reply to: re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation - dramedy 03:12 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| I don't know. I just re-read The Great Gatsby for the first time since high school, and I think it holds up brilliantly. | |
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| re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation | |
| Last Edit: lordofspeech 12:04 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| Posted by: lordofspeech 12:03 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| In reply to: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation - Musicals54 11:45 am EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| Good thoughts. I would argue that Daisy is the one who, literally, kills Myrtle. But your larger point, that the title and the treatment of romance are ironic is true. I would suggest that it’s also not ironic as well. Great romance is always folly, and also the miracle we all pine for. I think there might be a writer who could translate it to the stage. Stoppard comes to mind because he understood the illusory nature of romance. | |
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| re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation | |
| Posted by: AnObserver 11:59 am EDT 05/01/24 | |
| In reply to: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation - Musicals54 11:45 am EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| One could argue that Jay Gatsby (nee Gatz) is a symbol, a symbolic character, and that could be why the property doesn't work when he's literalized on film or stage. For me, Robert Redford ruins the otherwise good 1974 movie, but perhaps any actor would ruin it. | |
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| re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation | |
| Posted by: Ijest22 12:10 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| In reply to: re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation - AnObserver 11:59 am EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| I think if we could edit Leonardo DiCaprio from the more recent film into the 1974 version in place of Redford, we might have the perfect Gatsby movie. At least in my opinion. | |
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| re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation | |
| Posted by: AnObserver 12:20 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| In reply to: re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation - Ijest22 12:10 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| I don't see DiCaprio as enigmatic either. Perhaps an unknown would be the way to go, if literalized. | |
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| re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation | |
| Posted by: dczoo 02:11 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
| In reply to: re: Gatsby Always Fails: My Explanation - AnObserver 12:20 pm EDT 05/01/24 | |
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| Remove or replace Redford and you still have Lois Chiles giving one of the worst performances ever. | |
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